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User is suspended until 5/25/2016 7:43:29 AM(UTC) CultOfOsiris  
#1 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2013 7:51:38 PM(UTC)
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2 times now, it has failed to stop my monster from being destroyed by mirror force.
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Steeldarkeagel  
#2 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2013 7:53:10 PM(UTC)
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Can you post replays for us to look at and confirm that it is a bug.
User is suspended until 5/25/2016 7:43:29 AM(UTC) CultOfOsiris  
#3 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2013 8:09:16 PM(UTC)
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I didn't save them. I attacked, opponent answered with Mirror Force, I chained Infestation, my Evilswarm was still destroyed.
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Steeldarkeagel  
#4 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2013 8:13:51 PM(UTC)
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I just set up a quick test and it worked fine. If you can replicate the incident please save the replay and post it.
User is suspended until 5/25/2016 7:43:29 AM(UTC) CultOfOsiris  
#5 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2013 8:26:34 PM(UTC)
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The exact scenario:

I summoned Evilswarm Bahumut, I took control of one of his monsters. I attacked, he used mirror force, I chained Infestation from my hand, he chained another mirror force. All of the monsters went to the graveyard.
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Steeldarkeagel  
#6 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2013 8:30:08 PM(UTC)
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Oh well that is not a bug at all it is a chain. Mirror force activated first - then Infestation - then another mirror force. Then you work backwards down the chain meaning mirror force resolves before your infestation so they are not protected by it.
User is suspended until 5/25/2016 7:43:29 AM(UTC) CultOfOsiris  
#7 Posted : Saturday, April 06, 2013 12:06:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Steeldarkeagel Go to Quoted Post
Oh well that is not a bug at all it is a chain. Mirror force activated first - then Infestation - then another mirror force. Then you work backwards down the chain meaning mirror force resolves before your infestation so they are not protected by it.


Doesn't really make sense to me. But Yugioh is full of stupid rulings. Oh well, I guess it's like Black Horn of Heaven.

That's why I play on YGO Pro. The ruling make me want to jump into a wood chipper sometimes.

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Metatron  
#8 Posted : Saturday, April 06, 2013 12:53:09 AM(UTC)
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Stupid rulings ? That's the chain rulings and that's one of the most important if you want to play Yugioh.

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Chain
User is suspended until 5/25/2016 7:43:29 AM(UTC) CultOfOsiris  
#9 Posted : Saturday, April 06, 2013 2:14:14 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Metatron Go to Quoted Post
Stupid rulings ? That's the chain rulings and that's one of the most important if you want to play Yugioh.

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Chain


And that still doesn't make it any less stupid. He activated 2 traps, I used a card that supposedly grants my monster an immunity to traps for the turn. He didn't negate the effect of my card or the activation of that card. It doesn't make sense. I could understand if he activated Dark Bribe or Magic Jammer or something to negate my card.

Again, using Black Horn of Heaven, it doesn't say negate certain special summons, it says negate the special summon of a monster. It works against synchros, but not fusions because their summon is based on spell card. That's not what the card says.

This game used to be so simple. It was fun when cards actually did what they said.
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Lightmaster  
#10 Posted : Saturday, April 06, 2013 3:11:23 AM(UTC)
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OK. I'll try to explain what happened in your situation (I hope):

You attack, then the opponent activates Mirror Force, then you chain Infestation Pandemic Infection, then your opponent chains another Mirror Force. In that moment, the effect of your spell card hasn't been yet applied, because the effects of the cards in the chain are always solved backwards. The order in which happens the chain is like this:

1. The second Mirror Force's effect is applied, destroying your Attack position monsters.
2. Then the effect of Infestation Pandemic Infection goes on. Sadly, the timing of activation in this case was a little bit late, due to your opponent chaining another Mirror Force, therefore, it couldn't protect your Attack Position Evilswarm monsters in that case.
3. The first Mirror Force's effect is applied, but as there's no targets, the effect disappears.

If your opponent wouldn't have activated the second Mirror Force after you chained your card, your Evilswarm monsters would have been protected from being affected by it.

I just hope this explanation can be useful. Also, try to read again the link Metatron left.

Edited by user Saturday, April 06, 2013 3:16:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

User is suspended until 5/25/2016 7:43:29 AM(UTC) CultOfOsiris  
#11 Posted : Saturday, April 06, 2013 3:25:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Lightmaster Go to Quoted Post
OK. I'll try to explain what happened in your situation (I hope):

You attack, then the opponent activates Mirror Force, then you chain Infestation Pandemic Infection, then your opponent chains another Mirror Force. In that moment, the effect of your spell card hasn't been applied, because the effects of the cards in the chain are always solved backwards. The order in which happens the chain is like this:

1. The second Mirror Force's effect is applied, destroying your Attack position monsters.
2. Then the effect of Infestation Pandemic Infection goes on. Sadly, the timing of activation in this case was a little bit late, due to your opponent chaining another Mirror Force, therefore, it couldn't protect your Attack Position Evilswarm monsters in that case.
3. The first Mirror Force's effect is applied, but as there's no targets, the effect disappears.

If your opponent wouldn't have activated the second Mirror Force after you chained your card, your Evilswarm monsters would have been protected from being affected by it.

I just hope this explanation can be useful,


I understood it earlier. Doesn't make it any less stupid. I feel the same way about cards like Black Horn of Heaven and Geartown.
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Steeldarkeagel  
#12 Posted : Saturday, April 06, 2013 1:57:41 PM(UTC)
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This is how Yu-Gi-Oh has always worked, cards do not have their effects resolved until it has come to their turn in a chain. Otherwise the game would be a complete mess and chains would not work. If it had worked your infestation would not work in a chain.

In your world if he activated mirror force and then you chained infestation his mirror force would have already worked and your infestation would be useless. Chains work like this to make sure that cards actually have use.

And with the black horn, if it worked on any way to special summon people would have as many cards like this and thunder king as possible, cards have limits so they are not too powerful. These cards are good to side, so in game one if you see them using a lot of cards that black horn could negate you could add it in after.
DaKareerKilla  
#13 Posted : Saturday, April 06, 2013 9:59:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CultOfOsiris Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lightmaster Go to Quoted Post
OK. I'll try to explain what happened in your situation (I hope):

You attack, then the opponent activates Mirror Force, then you chain Infestation Pandemic Infection, then your opponent chains another Mirror Force. In that moment, the effect of your spell card hasn't been applied, because the effects of the cards in the chain are always solved backwards. The order in which happens the chain is like this:

1. The second Mirror Force's effect is applied, destroying your Attack position monsters.
2. Then the effect of Infestation Pandemic Infection goes on. Sadly, the timing of activation in this case was a little bit late, due to your opponent chaining another Mirror Force, therefore, it couldn't protect your Attack Position Evilswarm monsters in that case.
3. The first Mirror Force's effect is applied, but as there's no targets, the effect disappears.

If your opponent wouldn't have activated the second Mirror Force after you chained your card, your Evilswarm monsters would have been protected from being affected by it.

I just hope this explanation can be useful,


I understood it earlier. Doesn't make it any less stupid. I feel the same way about cards like Black Horn of Heaven and Geartown.


Black Horn of Heaven/Thunder King Rai-Oh/Steelswarm Roach work in a way that make sense though.
They cannot negate a Special Summon caused by an effect because the Game Mechanics of Yu-Gi-Oh state that an effect can only be activated in response to another effect, or more specifically that you cannot break into the resolution of a card effect. It's best to imagine that there are different windows of opportunity during gameplay to make certain actions/activate effects, but that not any given card can be used in each window.

Allow me to clarify:
Player A activates "Monster Reborn", targeting "Breaker the Magical Warrior" in their Graveyard.
Player B cannot activate "Black Horn of Heaven" at this point, because the Game State only recognises that an effect has been activated, and not that a Special Summon is being attempted.
The Special Summon is not attempted until the effect of "Monster Reborn" resolves, which is not a window that an effect can be activated in.
"Monster Reborn" resolves, and "Breaker the Magical Warrior" is Special Summoned.

Hopefully, that helps clear up any confusion you may have had, regarding the reason for the different uses of cards that can negate effects that cause Special Summons, and effects that can only negate Inherent Special Summons that do not start a Chain.

You are welcome to disagree with how the game works all you want, however, it will not change anything, so either learn to live with it, like the rest of us, or maybe try another hobby? :)
Player B cannot activate "Black Horn of Heaven" at this point as the Special Summon has already been a success.
JUDAS  
#14 Posted : Sunday, April 07, 2013 3:54:10 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CultOfOsiris Go to Quoted Post
This game used to be so simple. It was fun when cards actually did what they said.


Someone could say this about the state of the meta, but here you're just confused about simple game mechanics... it's a perfectly valid move, nothing wrong with it, and nothing "stupid" about it, that's how chains work.

If you keep complaining about the game, you won't get to enjoy it. If you're new, it will take time to learn, it's much more complicated than other TCGs, like Pokemon, but honestly it's worth it.
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