Leishmania
2014-12-13T10:22:42Z
I don't need to start off by saying this but I will...I wasn't planning on posting on these forums but the extent of which the AI cheated in my last duel has bothered me by enough as to where I feel I should bring it up.
Due to this, I'll bring up an image of this first before delving into anything else.


http://imgur.com/HpeZeWa 

Basically it went down like this...there was a Qliphort mirror match by random selection. I go 2nd and play Bait Doll as my first move, it hits Vanity's Emptiness and so it was forcefully activated. I pass the turn onto the AI after playing what you see in the screen and it uses Disk's effect even though Vanity is in effect. It goes so far as to Pendulum Summon the next turn so I quit. I didn't test if my own Vanity's would have stopped it but I didn't expect this to happen in the first place. It may be possible for the Qliph AI to ignore such cards entirely.

http://imgur.com/a/SweSK/all 

Only 3 of these screens are relevant (I posted these for the heck of it, didn't think I'd end up making this thread as I do say once again but would you look at what I ended up doing anyways). 2 are misplays and 1 is probably an actual bug. If you won't look at the screens...one of them shows 2 Level 5 monsters making a Rank 4 monster, another shows something I think is mentioned in a stickied thread (AI not knowing how to use counters in the slightest), and one more shows the AI deliberately setting themselves up to lose the duel.
If I am to continue on with "AI not learning" type of issue...2 strange examples (that I have no screens of) include; me once setting a Tsukuyomi against a full field of Rose tokens while the AI attacks with all of the Rose tokens because it forgets what Tsukuyomi is when it sets itself again and me once having Legendary Jujitsu Master out on the field with Catapult Zone to boot and a Jack Knight running into it every turn (which meant a wasted tribute summon every turn too...that was a moment with a full field btw so that lasted a while).
If I am to mention more about the "deliberate losing" issue then I'll mention that the Pegasus deck will always use Toon Defense even if they have Toon Kingdom on the field and/or multiple monsters to soak up attacks. Sure maybe the AI is scared of a Shaddoll Construct or something like that but it'll switch the Toon monsters to defense position regardless so it's not like there is a point to it actually keeping the monsters around in the manner it does.


So that is all I will say...for now. I would give "reviews" of the AIs or something (Battling Boxer is still the worst) but this isn't exactly the place for that I think. Maybe this isn't the best way to introduce myself but there ya go.
Snarky
2014-12-13T15:27:18Z
Thanks for the reports.

- Bait Doll activating Vanity's Emptiness seems to be a bug with YGOPro in general, not with the AI specifically. I was able to reproduce this bug in an online game. I will report it in the card bugs thread.

- As for Artifacts making a Rank 4: Do note, that the 2 Traptrix monsters on the field are level 3. Are you sure, you didn't activate a card or effect, that reduces the levels of all face-up monsters?

- If I don't add a card specifically, the AI will not have any information whatsoever about its effect. It will not "know", that Shard draws cards, or that it doesn't get any better with more counters. I can add Shard of Greed support, I guess. The Fabled deck not working out has to be expected, though, if the AI just activates effects whenever possible and selects random monsters to discard etc, Fableds won't work out at all. I would have to add support for that specific deck, which I don't have plans for at the moment. Next deck to add is probably BA, also I want to update the more recent decks with their respective new support cards.

- As for the AI decking itself out: Some of the effects do care about that, the AI should not go into Dante or use Raiden's effect, if its close to decking out. However, it will not attempt to remove Lightsworns from the field to shut down their milling, so its pretty easy to stall them out. I will look into it and see, if I can improve something about that.

- The AI has problems interacting with certain cards. Black Garden is one of them, it will not know, that the ATK of any summoned monster is halved as soon as it hits the field, so it will expect to beat over your monsters. Also attacking into known face-down monsters is a problem I plan to address, I need to overhaul the attack logic anyway. This is quite complex already, though, and it will become worse, so it might take some time.

Feel free to review the AI decks. Do note, that I will most likely not improve on the older AI decks not included by me, like the charakter decks, Boxers, Constellars etc., unless there are major bugs that need to be addressed. I know, that they don't work very well by the current standards of the AI, but to improve on that, I'll most likely have to re-do the entire deck, and I'd much rather add a new deck instead. If you only want to play against decks, that pose at least somewhat of a challenge, I'd suggest excluding the older decks from the selection by renaming/deleting/moving them to a different folder. The decks I'll continue to support are all the ones I implemented, including Chaos Dragons, Firefists, Bujin, Heraldic, Gadget, Mermail, Shaddoll, Tellarknight, HAT,Qliphort, Nobleknight, Necloth. You could consider the other decks a "lower difficulty level" of the AI, maybe. The weakest of these is probably Mermails, I suck at playing Mermails myself, so I cannot really make the AI play better than that >.<

Don't worry about your introduction, I do value constructive feedback. It certainly helps a lot more than "The AI sucks, make it better" or even "The AI is great" :D


Leishmania
2014-12-13T21:40:27Z
Uh thanks for replying. Right, let me address what was brought up in here.

1) I have used Bait Doll online against Vanity and did not have that problem. Maybe I got lucky or something? I don't know but okay I didn't know that the spell is supposedly bugged out to begin with.

2) I didn't notice the Traptrix were Level 3. From the looks of it...I am using my Spider deck. Hmmm okay maybe it's my bad there, I forgot that Xyz Encore also reduces the Levels of things. I don't remember doing things twice nor the AI waiting an unusual period of time (by letting me have monsters pile up in the graveyard) before Xyz'ing again but I suppose that did happen.
I suppose I'll mention a misplay issue instead. If the AI summons Pleiades (with any deck from what I can tell) and you use some sort of non-monster removal on it, the AI will make Pleiades return itself to the extra deck...even if you use Compulsory Evacuation Device or something similar. It doesn't even acknowledge if there is an Xyz Reborn on the field for it either. It probably shouldn't rush into doing that.

3) Yup. As the screen name is called, the AI has to be programmed so I don't expect it to know how to play a certain deck. I would hope for it to know how to use certain cards though. Like that Fabled deck is a Beast build...it runs Closed Forest. The AI never seems to activate field spells (it will set them though) either save for Gates of Dark World. Heck, the Exodia deck doesn't activate Magical City of Endymion like ever.

4) Well in the screen I show, that Micheal was destroyed. The deck had 0 cards left. I would hope for it to decide "when X cards are left in deck, if Y card (Micheal) is destroyed, use Y's effect" or something. It had 1 card in hand. It had literally nothing else to do so I figure it could be done.

5) It isn't aware of a lot of things. Notably some meta relevant cards like Skill Drain and Vanity's Emptiness they seem to not know are there too (unless the deck uses it i.e. Qliphort). Like the BA deck will try to summon Tour Guide every turn (if possible) to no avail among other things. If I am to mention a random thing though regarding that...the AI doesn't know that it needs to discard only 1 card with Endless Loan to get rid of a Loan Token; it will always discard its entire hand to get rid of a token. It's a pretty minor issue but I figure I'll bring that up.

6) I might make another thread for reviewing. For now I'll just mention...out of the newer ones you bring up; I find the Chaos Dragon AI, Gadget, and Tellarknight to be the worst (the Mermails actually play pretty well imo though it tries to go into Undine way too often and is weird about using Abysslinde and/or Abyssphere) while the Heraldic feels like the overall best.
If I am to specify about the bad (a full review would mention the good); the Chaos Dragons has a tendency to not use Lumina's effect even if it would be of a benefit (and will gladly discard for Lightpulsar ASAP) and destroy things like their own Black luster Soldier for Scrap Dragon when it has better options, the Tellarknights can't read and will make Delteros twice to only end up getting it destroyed twice by Slacker Magician or Master of Blades or some such (without using its free destruction effect on something else) because it really badly wants to make Delteros when it could make Triveil or some such instead, the Gadgets are able to have pretty much any play involving Redox be baited easily and uses Swift Scarecrow whenever...I can't really explain much more than that so it probably doesn't sound that bad but eh.
If new decks are to be made for the old ones...I'd mention it for Boxers (they have had lots of new support by now, also uh I'd ask for an image update but that's besides the point), Constellars (there's no Sombre and I suppose Tempest is an option to add if new stuff is desired), and Dark World (second worst AI next to Battlin Boxers, it could use a change but a deck alteration could be enough as it's kind of all over the place ATM...it could even use more Traditional cards if it wanted).

Well okie dokie then. Just trying to bring up what I see. I know I've had plenty of weird moments when dueling AI much more than online.
Snarky
2014-12-13T23:30:57Z
Originally Posted by: Leishmania 


I suppose I'll mention a misplay issue instead. If the AI summons Pleiades (with any deck from what I can tell) and you use some sort of non-monster removal on it, the AI will make Pleiades return itself to the extra deck...even if you use Compulsory Evacuation Device or something similar. It doesn't even acknowledge if there is an Xyz Reborn on the field for it either. It probably shouldn't rush into doing that.


Pleiades is an incredibly versatile effect, those are the hardest to code for the AI, because of all the ways to screw up. I did add a check, if Pleiades is about to be removed by an effect, that will return him to hand or deck, it should target other cards in this case, in theory. Maybe something is messed up with that, will look into it.

Quote:


The AI never seems to activate field spells (it will set them though) either save for Gates of Dark World. Heck, the Exodia deck doesn't activate Magical City of Endymion like ever.


That should be fixed with the latest experimental version.
Quote:


4) Well in the screen I show, that Micheal was destroyed. The deck had 0 cards left. I would hope for it to decide "when X cards are left in deck, if Y card (Micheal) is destroyed, use Y's effect" or something. It had 1 card in hand. It had literally nothing else to do so I figure it could be done.


I think, I didn't bother to add support for that effect of Michael's yet. Its usually not crucial for the Chaos Dragon AI, but I will add it to my to-do list.

Quote:


5) It isn't aware of a lot of things. Notably some meta relevant cards like Skill Drain and Vanity's Emptiness they seem to not know are there too (unless the deck uses it i.e. Qliphort). Like the BA deck will try to summon Tour Guide every turn (if possible) to no avail among other things.


Its hard to make the AI do correct plays while taking into account floodgates, since I basically have to code each individual card to not be played, if Vanity or Skill Drain is up, for example. I honestly have no idea, how I can do that in a reasonable way.
Quote:


6) I might make another thread for reviewing. For now I'll just mention...out of the newer ones you bring up; I find the Chaos Dragon AI, Gadget, and Tellarknight to be the worst (the Mermails actually play pretty well imo though it tries to go into Undine way too often and is weird about using Abysslinde and/or Abyssphere) while the Heraldic feels like the overall best.


Heh 🙂 Had reports from other people, how horrible Mermails would perform and Heraldics would be quite bad as well, while Tellarknights are usually perceived to do quite well. Sometimes its just the interaction with the decks you use, that makes the AI perform horribly, similar to the interaction with Slacker or MoB you mention. The AI is aware of untargetable cards for the most part, just not for effects that punish targeting, since I cannot check for those in a generic sense. I will need to add Slacker and MoB checks specifically.
Quote:


Well okie dokie then. Just trying to bring up what I see. I know I've had plenty of weird moments when dueling AI much more than online.


The AI will never be as good as a decent human player, so yeah, it will keep doing weird things 🙂
Michael Lawrence Dee
2014-12-13T23:39:54Z
Will there be an additional feature in the AI that if it can no longer have anything to play, like NOT Shaddolls, it will surrender to the Yata-Garasu lock like in Tag Force?
Now this is how I play:
Snarky
2014-12-14T00:40:25Z
Originally Posted by: Michael Lawrence Dee 

Will there be an additional feature in the AI that if it can no longer have anything to play, like NOT Shaddolls, it will surrender to the Yata-Garasu lock like in Tag Force?



There is no way to make the AI surrender, currently 🙂
Michael Lawrence Dee
2014-12-14T00:44:32Z
Originally Posted by: Snarky 

Originally Posted by: Michael Lawrence Dee 

Will there be an additional feature in the AI that if it can no longer have anything to play, like NOT Shaddolls, it will surrender to the Yata-Garasu lock like in Tag Force?



There is no way to make the AI surrender, currently :)



[:lol:] Okay. I hope the function gets added soon.
Now this is how I play:
Leishmania
2014-12-14T05:20:04Z
Quote:


Pleiades is an incredibly versatile effect, those are the hardest to code for the AI, because of all the ways to screw up. I did add a check, if Pleiades is about to be removed by an effect, that will return him to hand or deck, it should target other cards in this case, in theory. Maybe something is messed up with that, will look into it.



I understand that. I just think that it should at least try to avoid doing this for effects that would already do the same thing (it also happens with Phoenix Wing Wind Blast, not just hand bouncing cards). I can say that if the Constellar deck is to be re-made at some point (perhaps with a full extra), maybe it's own AI doesn't do this just by virtue of (perhaps) running more than 1 Pleiades.

Quote:


That should be fixed with the latest experimental version.



I have the latest version. Is that not the experimental one, I wouldn't think so but just asking. I notice at least the Noble Knight uses the field but the Exodia still doesn't.
Also, random mention but if I am talking about the Exodia deck, maybe it is just done to be easier to face or it's the AI trying to mislead the human player but I find there to not be much of a reason for it to activate Toon World. Maybe the deck could run Toon BEWD (since the normal is already ran for Trade-In) in it's place or try to imitate a certain once topping build (the Hope for Escape one) instead. The latter would take more time but yeah.

Quote:


I think, I didn't bother to add support for that effect of Michael's yet. Its usually not crucial for the Chaos Dragon AI, but I will add it to my to-do list.



I imagine it can be tricky for a similar reason as Pleiades is...there's lots of ways for it to try and decide when it should use the effect, what is an appropriate amount to return, and which Lightsworns to return but it'd be nice to see. Like I am not sure how the AIs specifically work but I would figure the Chaos Dragon deck would use it differently than the normal Lightsworn one.

Quote:


Its hard to make the AI do correct plays while taking into account floodgates, since I basically have to code each individual card to not be played, if Vanity or Skill Drain is up, for example. I honestly have no idea, how I can do that in a reasonable way.



I think I read about you mentioning that elsewhere after looking through the forums a little. Well you mention that you'd be more likely to work on newer decks than older ones. Maybe you could start off with cards that are shared in more than one deck (like the Artifacts and Tour Guides) as a start? Again, not sure how this works of course but I would think that to be better than no reaction anyways.

Quote:


Heh 🙂 Had reports from other people, how horrible Mermails would perform and Heraldics would be quite bad as well, while Tellarknights are usually perceived to do quite well. Sometimes its just the interaction with the decks you use, that makes the AI perform horribly, similar to the interaction with Slacker or MoB you mention. The AI is aware of untargetable cards for the most part, just not for effects that punish targeting, since I cannot check for those in a generic sense. I will need to add Slacker and MoB checks specifically.



I'd have to wonder if those are recent.
Worst I've ever seen from the Mermail deck is it deciding to use Dewlorean's effect during MP2 for no particular reason when the extra damage could have won it the game but that isn't that bad since it generally doesn't summon that card anyways.
Worst I've see from the Heraldics is just how utterly determined it is to try and get at least 1 Plain-Coat in the graveyard before doing anything else (where it'll just make King of the Feral Imps next if it still isn't in the grave and happens to be on the field) so it can be predictable but it seems to know what to do for any given situation outside of that...which I can't say for the Tellarknights "which only seem good because it's sacky".

Quote:

The AI will never be as good as a decent human player, so yeah, it will keep doing weird things :)



Right. I was just saying. Well uh thanks for taking your time to look into this anyways and being detailed about it.
Wdjat
2014-12-14T08:43:46Z
I was playing against the AI_Firefist. I summoned Dark Dragon Lord and it flipped Dark hole on me...
Snarky
2014-12-14T16:06:47Z
Originally Posted by: Leishmania 


I have the latest version. Is that not the experimental one, I wouldn't think so but just asking. I notice at least the Noble Knight uses the field but the Exodia still doesn't.


You can find the latest AI versions in this  thread. There is a stable version, which usually is the same version that comes with the latest YGOPro update, and there is an experimental version, which may hold untested changes, new unfinished decks or quick bugfixes.
Also, the Exodia AI deck is supposed to be used with an alternative AI file called ai-exodialib.lua. However, this file is not selected automatically when using the random deck function, which is kind of unfortunate. I cannot do anything about that, so I usually just remove the Exodia deck from the random deck function.
Quote:


I think I read about you mentioning that elsewhere after looking through the forums a little. Well you mention that you'd be more likely to work on newer decks than older ones. Maybe you could start off with cards that are shared in more than one deck (like the Artifacts and Tour Guides) as a start? Again, not sure how this works of course but I would think that to be better than no reaction anyways.


I have started to add checks for newly added cards, however, this will still be problematic, since when I add checks to all cards affected by floodgates and stop them from being summoned, the AI might just do nothing anymore for the rest of the duel, until it draws an MST or something.

Originally Posted by: Wdjat 

I was playing against the AI_Firefist. I summoned Dark Dragon Lord and it flipped Dark hole on me...



Which one would be Dark Dragon Lord? If I search for it, all I get is Van'Dalgyon the Dark Dragon Lord, in which case using Dark Hole would be a perfectly valid play? Or do you mean something like Beelze, which would be unaffected by Dark Hole? In this case, this would be a bug, Dark Hole is scripted to check for destruction immunity and should not be activated in this case.
Similar Topics
Users browsing this topic