chainscythe
2015-05-14T00:57:05Z
Here's an image of the bug: Print Screen of Field 
The opponent has used the effect of Phantom of Chaos to copy the stats of Nekroz of Valkyrus, but the game seems to recognize this change as its "original" attack, so I cannot use the effect of Ragnazero.






Steeldarkeagel
2015-05-14T11:12:50Z
Q:自身の効果で得た攻撃力は、元々の数値として扱いますか?
A:自身の効果で得た攻撃力は、元々の数値として扱います。(09/03/30)

Q: own effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value do you treat it as?
A: its effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value is treated as. (09/03/30)

http://yugioh-wiki.net/?...%A5%AB%A5%AA%A5%B9%A1%D5 
Starstrike
2015-05-14T17:42:36Z
The card says the attack BECOMES the targeted monster's attack. If it said PoC GAINS attack equal to the targeted monster's attack then it would be a difference in attack.

Becoming =/= gains

2015-05-14T18:48:35Z
I agree with chainscythe here. Phantom of Chaos's effect says "this card's name and ATK become that monster's name and ATK, and it gains that monster's effects." If it instead said this card's name and original ATK become that monster's name and ATK, then the result in the screenshot would be correct.

To cite another example, I point to Bujigi Crane's effect. "During damage calculation (in either player's turn), if a Beast-Warrior-Type "Bujin" monster you control battles an opponent's monster: You can send this card from your hand to the Graveyard; the ATK of your monster becomes double its original ATK, during that damage calculation only."

In this case, the ATK of your monster becomes double its original ATK. This uses the same wording as Phantom of Chaos, "becomes", but ygopro handles this attack change correctly as shown in this screenshot .
Steeldarkeagel
2015-05-14T19:08:04Z
Originally Posted by: Some1fromthedark 

I agree with chainscythe here. Phantom of Chaos's effect says "this card's name and ATK become that monster's name and ATK, and it gains that monster's effects." If it instead said this card's name and original ATK become that monster's name and ATK, then the result in the screenshot would be correct.



Not to sound rude, but agreeing with him does not change the rules of the game. As stated before:
Q: own effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value do you treat it as?
A: its effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value is treated as. (09/03/30)

In your example of Bujingi Crane:

Q:倍になった攻撃力は元々の攻撃力として扱いますか?
A:いいえ、扱いません。(14/04/17)

Q: became a double attack power is originally of attack power do you treat it as?
A: No, it does not handle. (14/04/17)
http://yugioh-wiki.net/?...%A5%D0%A5%AD%A5%EA%A1%D5 
2015-05-15T04:17:02Z
Originally Posted by: Steeldarkeagel 

Originally Posted by: Some1fromthedark 

I agree with chainscythe here. Phantom of Chaos's effect says "this card's name and ATK become that monster's name and ATK, and it gains that monster's effects." If it instead said this card's name and original ATK become that monster's name and ATK, then the result in the screenshot would be correct.



Not to sound rude, but agreeing with him does not change the rules of the game. As stated before:
Q: own effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value do you treat it as?
A: its effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value is treated as. (09/03/30)

In your example of Bujingi Crane:

Q:倍になった攻撃力は元々の攻撃力として扱いますか?
A:いいえ、扱いません。(14/04/17)

Q: became a double attack power is originally of attack power do you treat it as?
A: No, it does not handle. (14/04/17)
http://yugioh-wiki.net/?...%A5%D0%A5%AD%A5%EA%A1%D5 



I don't mean to sound rude either, but I cannot read Japanese so I cannot read the source you are citing.

By looking at the Yugioh Wikia Rulings  page for Phantom of Chaos I don't see any mention of the original attack, so there is no support for either side. In this case it is common to compare the card to other cards with similar wordings and use their rulings. That is why I used Bujigi Crane as an example since the wording is nearly identical. I not trying to discredit you, I am sure you are correct here. But either Konami should errata the effect again so that it states original attack or this will just have to be chalked up to a "Because Konami Said So" ruling.
mooyan curry
2015-05-15T04:32:28Z
^ The google translated source is literally below the Japanese text. [:laugh:]

Also why use Bujingi Crane as a comparison in this situation?

Crane's effect is only applied during Damage calculation, where Ragnazero's effect can't even activate, so it's kind of irrelevant to the issue.
chainscythe
2015-05-15T20:48:20Z
Originally Posted by: Starstrike 

The card says the attack BECOMES the targeted monster's attack. If it said PoC GAINS attack equal to the targeted monster's attack then it would be a difference in attack.

Becoming =/= gains



I appreciate the response but I have to disagree with your point.
Ragnazero only checks to see if the original attack and the current attack are different. If the card does not specifically say the original attack has been changed, then it hasn't been, and whatever wording is used on the card (gained, becomes etc.) is irrelevant to Ragnazero's effect. Cards that change the original attack specifically state so
e.g. Qliphort Disk 

Phantom of Chaos  does not do this in either its TCG or OCG text.

TCG text
Any Battle Damage your opponent takes from battles involving this card becomes 0. Once per turn: You can target 1 Effect Monster in your Graveyard; banish that target, and if you do, until the End Phase, this card's name and ATK become that monster's name and ATK, and it gains that monster's effects. You must control this face-up card to activate and to resolve this effect.

OCG Text (translated)
Select the effect monster in your Graveyard , it is possible to be excluded from the game . As long as this card is face-up on your field , this card is treated as a monster with the same name card that you selected until the End Phase , get the same attack power and the monster effect as the selected monster . This effect can only be used once per turn . Combat damage to the opponent that is generated by the battle of the monster becomes 0 .

The translation for "original attack" is "attack force", and this is not mentioned here.



For reference have a look at this card which does basically the same thing.

Number 8: Heraldic King Genom-Heritage 

TCG text
Once per turn: You can target 1 face-up Xyz Monster your opponent controls; this card's name and original ATK become that monster's name and current ATK, and this card's effect becomes that monster's original effect, then that monster's ATK becomes 0, and its effects are negated. These changes last until the End Phase.

OCG Text (translated)
Once per turn , you can activate by selecting Xyz monster on opponent's field . This card is treated as a monster with the same name card you choose , get the same attack force and effect . Then , attack strength of the monster you have selected is 0 , the effect is disabled . The effect of this card is applied until the End Phase .

As you can see there clearly is a difference in text.

Originally Posted by: Steeldarkeagel 

Q:自身の効果で得た攻撃力は、元々の数値として扱いますか?
A:自身の効果で得た攻撃力は、元々の数値として扱います。(09/03/30)

Q: own effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value do you treat it as?
A: its effect is obtained in the attack force , the original numerical value is treated as. (09/03/30)

http://yugioh-wiki.net/?...%A5%AB%A5%AA%A5%B9%A1%D5 



Thanks for the ruling. I wasn't aware of that. I'm not currently familiar with the Japanese wiki but I'm guessing that's the place to check when looking for OCG rulings. That said, I am curious as to how rulings are added to that wiki? Are they email verified; do Konami post directly on there? Normally, I'd click the link to source, but I couldn't find one.

Originally Posted by: Some1fromthedark 


By looking at the Yugioh Wikia Rulings  page for Phantom of Chaos I don't see any mention of the original attack, so there is no support for either side. In this case it is common to compare the card to other cards with similar wordings and use their rulings. That is why I used Bujigi Crane as an example since the wording is nearly identical. I not trying to discredit you, I am sure you are correct here. But either Konami should errata the effect again so that it states original attack or this will just have to be chalked up to a "Because Konami Said So" ruling.



I'm also largely surprised this wasn't mentioned on the yugioh wikia. They usually mention if there are differences to how a card is played in the two card games. Perhaps its because the wikia is oriented for the TCG and not the OCG, so I suspect that because of that, they may only take relevant OCG rulings that do not conflict with a TCG card text.

I'm pretty sure that the reason Problem Solving Card Text was introduced, was to make crystal clear what a card does in the TCG without the need for a ruling to explain it. Since its introduction, I personally think that there has been a very heavy shift into playing a card exactly how it is written because any card that has PSCT it is very easy to understand. This OCG ruling conflicts with what is written on Phantom of Chaos (even in Japanese), which might be why the wikia probably hasn't listed it, though I'm just guessing here.

Regardless, I do think its pretty safe to assume that in the TCG it works exactly as it says on the card (i.e. its original attack does not change and Ragnazero will work), at least until an official TCG ruling is given to say otherwise.
In the OCG, well, ¬¬ that old ruling is there it seems and my god does it irk me.

Its a shame that there has to be petty differences like this between what is essentially the same card game. Before PSCT English translations could be pretty questionable. Now that they are spot on, old card rulings are causing the differences. I think Japan just needs a PSCT revamp. I mean Phantom is nearly 8 years old and it has never had an OCG reprint!
XTAL
  • XTAL
  • Advanced Member
2015-05-15T21:34:13Z
KONMAI's official CCG ruling of "PoC":
http://www.db.yugioh-card.com/y...&keyword=&tag=-1 (Language setting is required)
CARD DATABASE wrote:

Question
「ファントム・オブ・カオス」の効果によって変化した攻撃力の数値は、”元々の攻撃力”として扱われますか?
Answer
「ファントム・オブ・カオス」の効果によって変化した攻撃力の数値は、”元々の攻撃力”として扱われます。

Translation:
Q. Is "PoC"'s ATK value changed by its own effect treated as its "original ATK"?
A. "PoC"'s ATK value changed by its own effect is treated as its "original ATK".

chainscythe wrote:

That said, I am curious as to how rulings are added to that wiki? Are they email verified; do Konami post directly on there? Normally, I'd click the link to source, but I couldn't find one.

The OCG Wiki is managed by OCG players, not by KONMAI. Usually we telephone/email the OCG office to answer card ruling questions, then add them to the wiki. When OCG KONMAI themselves release card rulings, they post them to the Card Database .
chainscythe
2015-05-15T21:49:51Z
That's good to know. Cheers.