Lunaraia
2013-08-04T09:36:01Z
This is just a minor thing but still.

The card says This card's ATK is equal to the combined Levels of the sent monsters x 300. which works, however rulings state that this is Original Attack, so it has a display error in-game, it's attack should we white to show original attack, not yellow to show increased attack


Ruling in question: When Summoning "Montage Dragon", "Cost Down" and "A Legendary Ocean" have no effect when determining its Original ATK.

So this should be fixed as cards that mess with increased attack obviously will have no effect on montage dragon, this display error made me lose a duel as I summoned Archfiend Cavalier in attack position and tried springing Reverse trap on Montage to destroy it, obviously it didn't work as it's 6000 attack were it's Original ATK not an ATK increase like I thought at first glance.
TheExceeder
2013-08-04T11:01:02Z
Wiki wrote:

Monsters with a ? for their ATK or DEF value cannot be searched through searchers, as they effectively have no ATK or DEF to measure before they are Summoned. However in most cases, even after they're Summoned, they are treated as having 0 original ATK and DEF.



The card text, both english and Japanese, only speaks of its ATK and not Original ATK. Also, further tawling through the wiki and Pojo, among other sites, seems to indicate that Montage Dragon and any other monster with ? ATK printed on it (that doesn't have an effect determining its original ATK like Chimeratech Overdragon) must be treated as having an Original ATK of 0, unless another card effect specifically alters his Original ATK and DEF.

That ruling on the wiki does seem like a mistake, but the link to it is dead...or TalkTalk doesn't want me to view it. SO I can't check its validity myself.
Lunaraia
2013-08-04T11:29:27Z
Originally Posted by: TheExceeder 

Wiki wrote:

Monsters with a ? for their ATK or DEF value cannot be searched through searchers, as they effectively have no ATK or DEF to measure before they are Summoned. However in most cases, even after they're Summoned, they are treated as having 0 original ATK and DEF.



The card text, both english and Japanese, only speaks of its ATK and not Original ATK. Also, further tawling through the wiki and Pojo, among other sites, seems to indicate that Montage Dragon and any other monster with ? ATK printed on it (that doesn't have an effect determining its original ATK like Chimeratech Overdragon) must be treated as having an Original ATK of 0, unless another card effect specifically alters his Original ATK and DEF.

That ruling on the wiki does seem like a mistake, but the link to it is dead...or TalkTalk doesn't want me to view it. SO I can't check its validity myself.



if that's the case then Reverse Trap should work, seeing as it then gains attack = to the levels of the sent monsters X 300, which is basically what Reverse Trap cares about, so the trap should always put Montage to 0, in which case it's still a bug, a more severe one at that.
Steeldarkeagel
2013-08-04T11:43:39Z
Reverse Trap works off the Increase or Decrease of attack or defense.

Montage Dragon states that its attack is "equal to the combined Levels of the sent Monsters x 300". So Reverse Trap will have no effect on it.
Lunaraia
2013-08-04T12:08:01Z
Originally Posted by: Steeldarkeagel 

Reverse Trap works off the Increase or Decrease of attack or defense.

Montage Dragon states that its attack is "equal to the combined Levels of the sent Monsters x 300". So Reverse Trap will have no effect on it.




which basically meanis it's his original attack, just like the ruling says
a.x.l
2013-08-04T14:07:06Z
You found something quite interesting...

First off, Reverse Trap works on card effects that clearly states "(monster) gains ~ ATK/DEF" or " (monster) loses ~ ATK/DEF".
We do not look at the difference between original ATK/DEF and current ATK/DEF, but recalculate the ATK/DEF by adding all "gains" and "loses" from all effects, in the opposite way.
Effects that set ATK/DEF to a fixed number is not affected by Reverse Trap.
So Montage Dragon's ATK does not change regardless it being origianl or not.

That said, regarding if it's original or not, here are some clues.
? ATK/DEF is "undefined" when the card is in deck/hand/grave.
When the monster is summoned, what its original ATK/DEF become varies from card to card.

Ex1)Chimeratech Overdragon
Quote:

The original ATK and DEF of this card each become 800 x the number of Fusion Material Monsters used for its Fusion Summon.

In this case, the card text clearly states that its original ATK/DEF is set to a fixed number.

Ex2)Tragoedia
Quote:

This card gains 600 ATK and DEF for each card in your hand.

In this case, the card text does not say anything about its original ATK/DEF. So they are 0/0, following the general ruling .

Now, about Montage Dragon.
Quote:

This card's ATK is equal to the combined Levels of the sent monsters x 300.

As we can see, the card text does not say anything about its original ATK/DEF either, so we can assume its original ATK/DEF are 0/0, and its current ATK/DEF are set to fixed numbers by its effect.

But as you mentioned, in its ruling page  we can see
Quote:

OCG Rulings
When Summoning "Montage Dragon", "Cost Down" and "A Legendary Ocean" have no effect when determining its Original ATK.

This contradicts with what I wrote so far.
Since its under the OCG ruling, I did some research about this in OCG.
  1. OCG wiki 
    Quote:

    Q:《コストダウン》・《伝説の都 アトランティス》で手札のモンスターのレベルが変化していた場合、どう扱いますか?
    A:カードに記されている元々のレベルで考えます。(08/04/19)

    Translation:
    Q: If the levels of the monster cards in hand are changed by such as "Cost Down" and "A Legendary Ocean", what happens?
    A: We only think about the levels written on the cards.(2008/04/19)

  2. KONAMI official website 
    Quote:

    Question
    「伝説の都 アトランティス」や「コストダウン」等の効果によって、手札に存在するモンスターのレベルが変化している時に、そのモンスターを墓地に送り「モンタージュ・ドラゴン」を特殊召喚した場合、「モンタージュ・ドラゴン」の攻撃力は、墓地に送ったモンスターのどの時点でのレベルの合計×300ポイントになるのですか?
    Answer
    カードの効果によってレベルが変化しているモンスターカードを墓地に送って、「モンタージュ・ドラゴン」を特殊召喚した場合、「モンタージュ・ドラゴン」の攻撃力の数値は、変化したレベルの数値ではなく、カードに記載されたレベル×300の数値になります。

    Translation:
    Question
    When the levels of the monster card in hand are changed by such as "Cost Down" and "A Legendary Ocean", if we summon "Montage Dragon" by sending those monsters to grave, at which point do we refer to the levels of the monster cards and multiply it by 300?
    Answer
    If you summoned "Montage Dragon" by sending monster cards whose levels are changed by card effects, "Montage Dragon"'s ATK is determined not using the changed levels, but the levels written on the monster cards, multiplied by 300.

As you can see, neither states Montage Dragon changes its original ATK.
Also take into consideration that in card texts, the only way KONAMI differentiate original ATK/DEF and current ATK/DEF, is whether to put the word "original" in the card texts or not.
In other words, unless the card text clearly says "original", all changes to ATK/DEF do not affect its original ATK/DEF.

Conclusion:
Although I do not have any authority to say the wikia is wrong, since it is a widely accepted source for correct rulings, I think in this specific case, given everything I found in OCG rulings, it is highly possible that the sentence we see in wikia is incorrect.





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