B*Dragon514
2018-08-16T14:08:13Z
So Odd-Eyes Lancer Dragon's first effect is as follows:

"If a Pendulum Monster you control is destroyed by battle or card effect: You can Tribute 1 monster; Special Summon this card from your hand."

I believe due to the wording that it's a Trigger Effect. However, the issue here is that it's not acting as if it were a Trigger Effect. Here's an example scenario:
  • I control "Odd-Eyes Pendulum Dragon" and "Odd-Eyes Arc Pendulum Dragon" in my Pendulum Zones, and "Odd-Eyes Lancer Dragon" is in my hand
  • I Pendulum Summon "Supreme King Gate Infinity" from my hand
  • I activate Infinity's effect, targeting Pendulum Dragon, destroy both, then Special Summon a Dragon Xyz or Pendulum Monster from my Extra Deck
  • Arc Pendulum's Pendulum Effect triggers since Pendulum Dragon was destroyed, which will allow me to Special Summon an "Odd-Eyes" monster from my hand, Deck or GY on resolution


At this point I should be allowed to activate Lancer Dragon's first effect at the same time, Tributing the monster Summoned using Infinity's effect. However, my opponent has "Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit" in their hand, and is able to activate it in response to Arc Pendulum's effect before I'm allowed to use Lancer Dragon's effect, with the game prompting me about Lancer Dragon's effect after Ghost Ogre has already activated.

Am I missing something here, or is this an issue with Lancer Dragon?
cybercatman
2018-08-16T14:46:02Z
Do you have a replay of that situation?
It would help us
B*Dragon514
2018-08-16T15:41:25Z
Yes, here is a replay of the situation I described previously.
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B*Dragon514
2018-08-18T07:58:16Z
Also another issue with Odd-Eyes Lancer Dragon, related to its third effect:

"If an "Odd-Eyes" card(s) you control would be destroyed by battle or card effect, you can destroy 1 "Odd-Eyes" card in your hand, Monster Zone, or Pendulum Zone instead."

I have a replay here showing this, but basically what happens is that Lancer Dragon attacks Darkest Diabolos, a monster with 3000 ATK as well, and I decided to destroy Odd-Eyes Vortex Dragon instead of Lancer Dragon being destroyed. However, what happens is that Vortex gets destroyed, then Arc Pendulum's effect goes off, bringing Vortex back, then Diabolos gets destroyed. Shouldn't Vortex and Diabolos be destroyed at the same time?

This happens on Turn 3, for reference.
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pyrQ
  • pyrQ
  • Advanced Member
2018-08-29T19:24:05Z
I will address both things in this post.

Odd-Eyes Lancer hand effect vs Ghost Ogre:
B*Dragon514 wrote:

At this point I should be allowed to activate Lancer Dragon's first effect at the same time, Tributing the monster Summoned using Infinity's effect. However, my opponent has "Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit" in their hand, and is able to activate it in response to Arc Pendulum's effect before I'm allowed to use Lancer Dragon's effect, with the game prompting me about Lancer Dragon's effect after Ghost Ogre has already activated.

Am I missing something here, or is this an issue with Lancer Dragon?

In the OCG (and YGOPro is an OCG simulator), Trigger effects in the hand, like this one that "Odd-Eyes Lancer Dragon" has (same for Astrograph Sorcerer for example), have lower priority than public effects and act more like quick effects in that they aren't included in the SEGOC chain.

So, since you activated the effect of "Odd-Eyes Arc Pendulum Dragon", now the opponent gets priority to activate cards or effects, allowing them to activate Ghost Ogre's effect before you can activate Lancer's effect.

Relevant ruling with Electrumite, Astrograph and Borreload (you can throw it into Google Translate and you'll get the gist of it):
KONAMI wrote:

Q.
自分フィールドの「ヘビーメタルフォーゼ・エレクトラム」の②の効果により、Pゾーンのカードを破壊し、EXデッキから「アストログラフ・マジシャン」を手札に加えた。

この後で強制的に発動する「ヘビーメタルフォーゼ・エレクトラム」の③の効果に対して、手札に加えた「アストログラフ・マジシャン」の効果をチェーンする前に相手は「ヴァレルロード・ドラゴン」の②の効果を発動できますか?
A.
ご質問の状況で自分の「ヘビーメタルフォーゼ・エレクトラム」の『③』の効果が発動した場合、それによって優先権は必ず相手に移ります。

よって、ここで相手にチェーンの有無の確認をするため、先に効果を発動する事ができるのは、相手の「ヴァレルロード・ドラゴン」の『②』の効果となります。


Odd-Eyes Lancer "destroy instead" effect and battle destruction:
B*Dragon514 wrote:

I have a replay here showing this, but basically what happens is that Lancer Dragon attacks Darkest Diabolos, a monster with 3000 ATK as well, and I decided to destroy Odd-Eyes Vortex Dragon instead of Lancer Dragon being destroyed. However, what happens is that Vortex gets destroyed, then Arc Pendulum's effect goes off, bringing Vortex back, then Diabolos gets destroyed. Shouldn't Vortex and Diabolos be destroyed at the same time?

You're confusing the timing that monsters are destroyed/considered to be destroyed by the battle and the timing when they are sent to the Graveyard. Those happen at 2 different times.

When damage calculation is performed, that's when it's decided whether a monster is determined to be destroyed by the battle or not. Monsters that are determined to be destroyed by battle are not sent to the Graveyard until the end of the damage step. However, the "destroy X card instead" effects are applied immediately after damage calculation, which is before monsters are sent to the Graveyard. So, for the whole duration of the "after damage calculation" sub-step, the opponent's Diabolos is considered to be destroyed by battle (so certain rules apply to it), but it hasn't been sent to the Graveyard yet, while your Odd-Eyes is not considered to be destroyed by battle since you applied the "destroy X instead" effect before.

And of course, Arc Pendulum will Trigger right after its condition is fulfilled and not a whole sub-step later (it would be a completely different timing at that point).

I suggest giving this page about the Damage Step a read since it can be quite complex (and also Konami's official page on it): https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Damage_Step 
B*Dragon514
2018-08-31T02:47:16Z
Quote:

In the OCG (and YGOPro is an OCG simulator), Trigger effects in the hand, like this one that "Odd-Eyes Lancer Dragon" has (same for Astrograph Sorcerer for example), have lower priority than public effects and act more like quick effects in that they aren't included in the SEGOC chain.



Thank you for clarifying this. I am aware that YGOPro follows the OCG rulings but I wasn't aware that this is how it's handled in the OCG. Is the way I thought it would work the way it actually works in the TCG, or does it work just the same as here? Figured it's worth asking so I don't make the same mistake playing irl.

Quote:

You're confusing the timing that monsters are destroyed/considered to be destroyed by the battle and the timing when they are sent to the Graveyard. Those happen at 2 different times.

When damage calculation is performed, that's when it's decided whether a monster is determined to be destroyed by the battle or not. Monsters that are determined to be destroyed by battle are not sent to the Graveyard until the end of the damage step. However, the "destroy X card instead" effects are applied immediately after damage calculation, which is before monsters are sent to the Graveyard. So, for the whole duration of the "after damage calculation" sub-step, the opponent's Diabolos is considered to be destroyed by battle (so certain rules apply to it), but it hasn't been sent to the Graveyard yet, while your Odd-Eyes is not considered to be destroyed by battle since you applied the "destroy X instead" effect before.



Ah right. I party knew of the fact that monsters are first determined to be destroyed by battle before they're actually sent to the GY because of how Flip effects work, but I didn't even think about a scenario like this. You learn something new every day.

Thanks very much for clarifying both of these things for me.
pyrQ
  • pyrQ
  • Advanced Member
2018-08-31T13:47:47Z
B*Dragon514 wrote:

Is the way I thought it would work the way it actually works in the TCG, or does it work just the same as here? Figured it's worth asking so I don't make the same mistake playing irl.

I'm not 100% sure but I think that in the TCG they act as Trigger effects and are included in SEGOC (so in that same example Lancer would be Chain Link 2, effectively blocking the opponent from using Ghost Ogre in response to Arc Pendulum).

I suggest asking your local judge(s) or someone who's more familiar with TCG to make sure.
B*Dragon514 wrote:

Thanks very much for clarifying both of these things for me.

No problem.
J. D. Guy
2018-09-02T05:13:00Z
Originally Posted by: pyrQ 

B*Dragon514 wrote:

Is the way I thought it would work the way it actually works in the TCG, or does it work just the same as here? Figured it's worth asking so I don't make the same mistake playing irl.

I'm not 100% sure but I think that in the TCG they act as Trigger effects and are included in SEGOC (so in that same example Lancer would be Chain Link 2, effectively blocking the opponent from using Ghost Ogre in response to Arc Pendulum).

I suggest asking your local judge(s) or someone who's more familiar with TCG to make sure.



This is exactly how it would work, making such effects stronger in the TCG.

Simply put, it follows the rules that Spell Speed 1 Effects cannot Chain to anything with Spell Speeds higher than 1, and that all Trigger effects that meet their triggers from the same action (turn player's and non-turn player's) will activate and Chain to themselves (via the SEGOC guidelines) before either player can respond with a Spell Speed 2 or higher card or effect.